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Comments
The problem with that is trying to seal the exposed edge at the bottom of the tank. Think of the problem more in the vein of a model airplane fuel tank with a movable "clunk" hanging at the bottom for a pickup. Pretty much anything that will seal into the inside of the screw-in insert will do the job so long as it reaches to the bottom of the tank once inside. Take the assembly out as I've shown in the photos and just take it to the hardware store and find a piece of hose that fits tightly into the end. That's all that's needed, along with some patience filing out the bung on the tank big enough to get the hose into.
Take it apart. You'll see what needs doing. It's pretty basic.
WilliamA
"When I am in charge, Starburst brand fruit chews will get their own food group....and where are all the freakin laser beams? There should be more laser beams..."
2021 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk
2017 T@G XL
Boyceville, Wi.
I’m so new at this. But going to try.
No worries. If you need more details, shout out. I'll be on the road for a week but will be tuning in. LuckyJ and others can also offer some thoughts if you reach out!
WilliamA
"When I am in charge, Starburst brand fruit chews will get their own food group....and where are all the freakin laser beams? There should be more laser beams..."
2021 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk
2017 T@G XL
Boyceville, Wi.
I bought Vodka for winterizing my SS but it never got into the system. Is this just a California thing
Tom
Aptos, California
2015 LG Silver Shadow
2012 Ford Edge Sport TV
Nope. We have that in AZ too.
Mike
Chaverim Basenjis
-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—-—
2018 T@G Sofitel
2016 Audi A3 e-tron
@WilliamA Ill be trying something in the spring now. Sparrow is put away till spring, sniff sniff...
Well, you need the bottom shelf vodka. The one that come with a pink stuff bottle as a package. It is also much cheaper.
Not that I do not want to, but the vodka tip is way to expansive to do north of the border. Lol
@WilliamA your posts are greatly appreciated. I've decided to go through and literally read every single post on this site and (although painfully tedious) I've learned a ton and already completed a couple mods myself (as you saw with the Rhino Rack Batwing). This drain issue moved to the top of my list rapidly after our first deployment and after a ton of research your fix has become a T@G-lifesaver!
@WilliamA so, I did not remove the clamp before unscrewing the outlet. It seems like that's not an issue but do you think that could open the door for future leaks? Testing in the house sink seems solid.
Probably not a problem. What's leaking is usually obvious. What's less obvious is when a connection doesn't leak fluid, but sucks air when the pump is running under vacuum. That's likely or even common. Make it easy and just remove any loose clamps, replacing them with small screw-type hose clamps. Don't bother with the crimp-on clamps.
"When I am in charge, Starburst brand fruit chews will get their own food group....and where are all the freakin laser beams? There should be more laser beams..."
2021 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk
2017 T@G XL
Boyceville, Wi.
Did and done. I had the perfect number of small clamps tossing about in my toolbag. It's situations like this that cause me to slowly revert back to packrat status.
Did you re-seal the drain pipe to the linoleum?
I just ran a bead of caulk around the bottom. It's the trailer owners duct tape!
WilliamA
"When I am in charge, Starburst brand fruit chews will get their own food group....and where are all the freakin laser beams? There should be more laser beams..."
2021 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk
2017 T@G XL
Boyceville, Wi.
@WilliamA any tips on finding a vacuum leak? I've frightened and replaced all the clamps with screw clamps, I sealed both connections at the tank and I don't see air in the line until the tank is near empty but I'm still getting a lot of sputter at the faucet. I'm about to take it all apart to diagnose, but hoping to avoid that since the cuts and scrapes on my hands have just healed since the last time.
One thing to look for is clamps that are "too" tight. If you tighten the clamp too much (I'm referring to the screw-drive hose clamp or similar) you'll force the hard hose off on a corner and it could suck air. Other than that, just carefully check each fitting with your eyeball. One way to check if you have an air compressor is to set the pressure way down to about 20 psi, then use an air blower nozzle to lightly blow air into the hose where it disconnects from the tank. Most air nozzles have a cone end on them and you can just press it against the end of the hose. If you can make that work, then just soap up all of the connections and look for bubbles. It's much more annoying and putzy to look for and find a vacuum leak than a pressure leak. If you are sure it's air sputtering at the faucet, then you can be assured it's on the vacuum side of the pump, not the pressure side. My best guess would be either the pump connection or the filter housing. Take the filter off, clean the rubber gasket and coat it with plumbers grease (non-toxic). If not there, I'm guessing it's at the tank fitting where the tank bung hooks to the hose. Just be slow, thorough and persistent.
WilliamA
"When I am in charge, Starburst brand fruit chews will get their own food group....and where are all the freakin laser beams? There should be more laser beams..."
2021 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk
2017 T@G XL
Boyceville, Wi.
aah think I'll go with bottled water.
Gig Harbor Tom
Trl '17 T@G Max
TV 2018 Mazda CX9 Signature
@WilliamA I did go back over all the fittings. Priming the pump was one issue and over tightening was apparently another. The fittings at the tank were also (maybe) night tight enough, but all in all I did too many troubleshooting steps without testing in between to identify the exact problem. I've put plumbers grease on my list for the next town run. I was already concerned about that gasket in the filter housing, but that would resolve issues. I ran 8-10 full cycles of water through the tank since I had to bleach treat it (procrastination allowed me to learn a valuable lesson on winterizing). I'm very happy with this mod (and proud). We've added 3+ of usable water which is a must as I build toward boonsocking exclusively. I couldn't have done it without you! Thanks!
I'll post some pics, but mostly they're identical to yours.
I recently did the water tank with a slight change.
Rather than filing the hole larger to accommodate the 3/8” ID tubing, I used the 3/8” tubing as only a short bushing inside the plastic threaded fitting. I then slipped a length of 3/8” OD / 1/4” ID clear vinyl tubing inside the 3/8” ID tubing and into the tank.
The smaller clear vinyl tubing slips into the existing tank fitting without any modification and doesn’t seem to cut down on flow rate at the faucet. So far the suction of the pump hasn’t collapsed the smaller tubing, something that I was worried about.
All of this was done without adhesive and I was able to pivot the existing water line up and out of the tank without removing any other plumbing. I used potable water compatible pipe dope on the white plastic fitting and used a new hose clamp to secure the existing hose to the fitting.
WilliamA, thanks for all the great ideas and photos to go along with your write-ups.
I've never worked with a water pump before so I don't know what I don't know. But something was mentioned that caused me to rethink our water tank problem.
The symptom is that the pump sputters like crazy when the water level drops below the intake.
In practical terms, I can get through maybe 3 gallons of water before the sputtering starts. I've been "fixing" the problem by raising the nose of the trailer to force the water to the back of the trailer, but that's not a great solution, obviously.
I thought this was normal behavior for a water pump like this. But now that I read the newest posts above, I'm thinking it may be a vacuum leak instead of just poor tank/pump design
So here's my question...
When a pump/tank setup is working 100% properly, is it normal to get sputtering when the water drops below the level of the intake? Or does the vacuum action draw water into the intake regardless? Again, I can get maybe 3-4 gallons out before the sputtering starts.
It's kind of a rookie question, I know, but if sputtering is not "normal" behavior, but rather a sign of a vacuum leak, then maybe I have a chance of actually fixing this problem!
--
Sometimes the oak. Sometimes the willow.
The problem is the pump starts sucking air from the tank outlet when the water level gets below it. The only solution is to effectively lower the outlet level, either by tilting the trailer so the water pools around the outlet, moving the outlet to the bottom of the tank or by adding a pickup tube that rests on on the bottom of the tank.
Okay, so sucking air, by itself, is not proof of a vacuum leak -- ?
--
Sometimes the oak. Sometimes the willow.
Not at all. If you will look at the hose, you'll see it doesnt go all the way to the bottom of the tank.
2019 T@G Boondock Edge 5W
2017 Toyota 4Runner TRD Pro
2022 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon 4xe
If the pump runs well when the tank is full, there's no vacuum leak. The best test for any kind of leak is to run the pump, then shut the spigot off. Does the pump "stutter" or cycle when the spigot is off? If no, then the pressure side (after the pump) is tight. If the pump stutters after shutting off the water, then there's a leak somewhere on the pressure side. If the pump passes that simple test but struggles to start pumping, it's either a vacuum leak on the suction side between the tank and pump, or the inlet is sucking air. Keep in mind, the little pump is powerful and will begin to form a cavitation pool before the water level is actually down to tank outlet level. What's a cavitation pool? See: "Coriolis Effect". Remember, water has a lot of air (gas) in it. Speed up or disrupt the water flow or reduce its atmospheric pressure (see: "Bernoulli's Principle") and dissolved gasses will spontaneously eject from suspension, resulting in pump cavitation even though the outlet is below the water level..
Watch the water exit your bathtub. You'll get the idea...
WilliamA
"When I am in charge, Starburst brand fruit chews will get their own food group....and where are all the freakin laser beams? There should be more laser beams..."
2021 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk
2017 T@G XL
Boyceville, Wi.
@WilliamA Makes sense. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the following scenario is normal, and NOT, in and of itself, indicative of a vacuum or pump problem:
Scenario: Pump on + water on = pump stuttering (sucking air)
Cause: Water level too low to reach the intake
Solution: Add more water, or tilt front of trailer so existing water pools near the intake
Did I get that right?
--
Sometimes the oak. Sometimes the willow.
Correct...
WilliamA
"When I am in charge, Starburst brand fruit chews will get their own food group....and where are all the freakin laser beams? There should be more laser beams..."
2021 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk
2017 T@G XL
Boyceville, Wi.
The idea that I am carrying around 4 gallons of basically unusable water really galls me. Everything is so feather light on our trailers, so 32 pounds wasted is nuts. I can reduce the waste to 2 gallons by really tipping the nose up (but don’t try cooking while doing this). Nobody has mentioned yet that the stale water sitting in the tank builds up bacteria and other icky things. All super irritating.
Gerald
Redmond, Washington
Nissan Armada
Nucamp T@G (2017) & Forest River Vibe 25RK (2021)
Yes, having some water remaining in the tank is irritating, but no matter tge amount, cause you will always have some, even a few oz, your water tank should be sanitized every ounce in a while to prevent this. Cause it will never dry out.
Here is my shot at improving the water tank setup. I drilled a new port in the top of the tank with a 1” wood boring bit. I inserted a 1/2” female to 3/8” barbed male connector with a 3/8” tube reaching the bottom of the tank. I connected the water pump up to a new barb connector on the new port. Then I put a new vent tube on the old vent connection (not essential). I replaced the Y connector in the tank drain and that now serves the low-point drain and (possibly) a future idea.
The difference was instantly stunning. Water blasts out of the sink instead of an agonizing trickle. The water feed used to stop mid-tank at the E.Y.L. Now I get 5.5 gallons past that mark.
The fix was simple but time consuming. Totally worth it.
Gerald
Redmond, Washington
Nissan Armada
Nucamp T@G (2017) & Forest River Vibe 25RK (2021)
Just finished a surprisingly uncomplicated attempt at WilliamA 's hack on my 2015 T@g Max. I was a bit intimidated by the Gerald mod, which nonetheless seems a slightly more elegant solution. Once I had the intake fitting detached, I bored the tank opening slightly with a dremel, so I could fit a 9/16 nylon hose. I did it a tiny bit at a time, testing frequently until the hose fit snugly. As a result, I didn't bother to seat the hose inside of the fitting - I left it nearly flush with the tank edge, with just enough sticking out to grip it with pliers should I ever want to take it out. As predicted, screwing the fitting back in did not turn the tube, so it remains in position. I think this can eliminate the issue of a spinning hose as you tighten the fitting. Note to users trying either fix: those pinch clamps holding the plumbing tubes are a headache to remove in a tight space - the task consumed a lot of my project time, and just about made me regret even starting. But I persevered. Once I got two of them off, I switched to a simpler screw-tightented clamps, which I also notice was Fleming's choice. I think this makes for much easier removal farther on down the road. Thanks to both of you! You ought to feel proud that these hacks have now endured for years. I get darn near all the water out of my tank now - maybe a half- or quarter-inch is left. I worry, however, that the drain-it-as-you-drive method for emptying the tank may not work as well, since the water won't flow as easily into the interior hose. To me, that makes the Fleming mod a more elegant solution, since it leaves the drain line to the T valve intact.
Having just finished the insert-intake mod, my pump quit! Since I needed to replace it, I decided to remove the mod tube and try the new-intake mod. I used PEX and Shark Bite fittings for all of it. Drilling slowly helps keep it tidy - the plastic tends to spiral onto the bit, so you can clean most of it off before it winds up in the tank.
Photos. (Sorry for not rotating photos 2-5 clockwise 90 degrees.) 1: Former intake Tee replaced with straight tube to preserve the drain line. 2: The new intake is a half-inch female hose coupling to a PEX down tube, with a male threaded coupling and tube going up to the pump. 3: An easy hack to line up the new intake hole - a chopped pencil fits perfectly. 4, 5: A couple extra plastic washers and a generous amount of plastic cement made the new port plenty sturdy. Photo 4 shows an early-warning line for the intake limit, below which the pump starts to suck air - It’s an inch lower than the original design limit!